Joint meeting in stance against heritage crime

[jcmaloney]

Simple solution........ teams of detectorists work the site in hand with archaeologists marking targets which can then be "surgically excavated" on uncultivated sites and recorded/documented.
No targets = no nighthawks. Its been done already in Norfolk (on ploughed land) and the result is more recorded knowledge and theft has stopped completely.

Nighthawkers target scheduled sites ... targets or no targets ... thats what they do ... they are mostly thick..
So seed sites that have been geofizzed to death ... and let the hawkers dig to their hearts content ... I assure you they will stop very quickly...
Seeding sites means that they get a signal every few swings ... even a complete idiot wouldnt detect those conditions ... so problem solved... What is the alternative??? You want the archis to let you dig Stonehenge? in your dreams me thinks

Hardly a constructive reply as seeding would create bigger issues in the future greater than the negligible issue being resolved.
The majority of such heritage crime is caused by some turnip buying a machine from Maplins and toddling off to their local SAM.
Restricting supply of machines to specialist shops where the retailer can run through the law/rules with a purchaser would have a greater impact.
Take air weapons as an example ... you can`t buy them in Tesco`s you have to go to a specialist retailer where there is a level of control. Likewise you can`t sell/buy such restricted items on ebay etc.

[Old Git John]

I would love to take on "night duty" on the project, armed with a police quality night sight,
and appropriate radio link. I have experience using both.

Sounds like an episode straight out of keystone cops ... whack um with your truncheon and lock um up for life.


Not really, with a night sight you can be a considerable distance away, and see a person
as if it were daylight. The radio would give access to the local bobbies, who could then attend. None of us would be advised to tackle these thieves when alone.

[PhilD]

If I was a landowner I would find a drone very useful.

I could patrol my land in safety very very quickly and have peace of mind.

A quick call on 999 if I see anything going on out there and take a few piccies too.

[Old Git John]

If I was a landowner I would find a drone very useful.

I could patrol my land in safety very very quickly and have peace of mind.

A quick call on 999 if I see anything going on out there and take a few piccies too.

Quite right Phil, the night sight idea could be adapted for use with drones, as appropriates lenses are on the market.

[IronRon]

W. hat would you seed them with? a washer gives a fixed number they can ignore.

Good question phil. Seeding wouldn't work.. manufacturers would get around this.

Some of these sites have been systematically
dug for years bye amertuers. In 1939 I was evacuated to Wiltshire & lived with an old retired Victorian gentleman the local bigwig . who loved digging up the past ..he got us kids to help him in secret, to dig a roman villa which was located in woodland . We actually dug through the mosaic in our ignorance to collect tesserae.

It wasn't until years later when talking to an archaeologist that it had been an important villa. & he had been digging it for years .

Hi Ron ... so if seeding wouldn't work... what would be your blue sky solution? or should that be sky at night solution?

Go back to licensing like it used to be . Anyone can buy a detector at the moment . show absolute proof in writing that you have land to detect on before you can own one & you are serious about your heritage. if their is money in it for the government they will act. Another tax I know . but it seems the onley way ,,

[oldfossil]

Simple solution........ teams of detectorists work the site in hand with archaeologists marking targets which can then be "surgically excavated" on uncultivated sites and recorded/documented.
No targets = no nighthawks. Its been done already in Norfolk (on ploughed land) and the result is more recorded knowledge and theft has stopped completely.

Nighthawkers target scheduled sites ... targets or no targets ... thats what they do ... they are mostly thick..
So seed sites that have been geofizzed to death ... and let the hawkers dig to their hearts content ... I assure you they will stop very quickly...
Seeding sites means that they get a signal every few swings ... even a complete idiot wouldnt detect those conditions ... so problem solved... What is the alternative??? You want the archis to let you dig Stonehenge? in your dreams me thinks

Hardly a constructive reply as seeding would create bigger issues in the future greater than the negligible issue being resolved.
The majority of such heritage crime is caused by some turnip buying a machine from Maplins and toddling off to their local SAM.
Restricting supply of machines to specialist shops where the retailer can run through the law/rules with a purchaser would have a greater impact.
Take air weapons as an example ... you can`t buy them in Tesco`s you have to go to a specialist retailer where there is a level of control. Likewise you can`t sell/buy such restricted items on ebay etc.

So JCM ... you are suggesting restricting the sale of detectors only to specialist retail shops ... I guess that wipes out mail-order sales ... ebay may also have something to say on the matter... are you suggesting that a law is enacted to restrict sales... given the priorities in these troubled times. are you really suggesting that parliament consider the issue ... or are you talking hypothetical/ blue sky? Are you being serious?

I really think that likening detectors sales ... to the sale of firearms ... is taking the subject a tadge too far... to put it very politely its just silly and inappropriate.

Also please can you elaborate on the "negligible issue" are you saying that night hawking is negligible?

[oldfossil]

If I was a landowner I would find a drone very useful.

I could patrol my land in safety very very quickly and have peace of mind.

A quick call on 999 if I see anything going on out there and take a few piccies too.

I think that the problem with drones is that you need a licence to use them ... their use is highly restricted as Godfrey explained to me at last Sundays meeting. So apart from the fact that they are costly, and farmers are very busy people, not to mention public intrusion considerations, they are not a practical solution. It may work in selected locations with appropriately licensed operatives, but I dont think that it is something an ordinary farmer would consider. Lets not forget that nighthawking happens at night... and I would imagine that the skill set needed to deploy and operate drones in the dark is very significant.
With seeding ... its cheap, its quick, its legal, anyone can do it, and it lasts a lifetime... the only downside as I see it is geofizzing ... but if a site has already been geofizzed to death... then the geofizzing downside doesnt exist.

[jcmaloney]

In the grander scheme of things proven nighthawking is negligible if compared to the vast knowledge gained by responsible detecting.
How many reports do we see of "illegal detecting" where the only evidence is a dug hole ?

I could hop on the bus to town with a hand trowel & dig the lawn of Jewry Wall with no machine and tomorrows headline would be "Nigh-hawks attack 2,000 year old Leicester Roman Landmark".

Likewise many of these holes are dug by "Maplin detector wielding plebs" who have no idea of the rules/laws etc and are more likely to have found the previous years coke cans and similar rubbish ......but create bad publicity.... so possibly restricting the retail market is a first step.
Next step would possibly be to have hobbyists licenced by somebody (eg: PAS) so finds get recorded and there is positive interaction with the hobby & academia.

We seek a finite resource and with that comes responsibility not only to this generation but future generations as well.

Can you think of a better solution?

[lee greagsbey]

.... so possibly restricting the retail market is a first step.
Next step would possibly be to have hobbyists licenced by somebody (eg: PAS) so finds get recorded and there is positive interaction with the hobby & academia.

I for one would support both these suggestions... . I have often suggested the proposal of licences for metal detecting to my FLO and he feels that PAS are not really in a position to manage licences sadly....

[IronRon]

You used to have to have a licence in the seventies.. I was asked to produce mine on several occasions.
I think it was thatcher who changed the law. When she said.. Let the old age pensioners go out & earn themselves a few quid .when their was a lot of pressure to try & ban it by archeologists.

[jcmaloney]

Ahhh yes but the one thing PAS are short of is cash......... a licence/permit at £50-£100 a year would generate much needed income, the PLA have done such with the Mudlarks.
However it would also lead to an increase in illegal detecting which would possibly lead to a ban.
These things tend to follow each other. As ever those who abide by "rules" are the ones who suffer because of those who don`t !
Controlling retail so that "newbies" get the message that the hobby has responsibility and rules would keep some control and educate folk.

[PhilD]

Newbies need to be informed of the rules before switching the machine on.

The dealers should include a single sheet of paper showing the Code of Practice for Responsible Detecting with each machine they sell (how many can say they do this?).

Also dealers in the UK should put a sticker on each machine that at least gives the owners and subsequent owners notice that there is a COP as per attachment (how many can say they do this?).

[Old Git John]

If I was a landowner I would find a drone very useful.

I could patrol my land in safety very very quickly and have peace of mind.

A quick call on 999 if I see anything going on out there and take a few piccies too.

Quite right Phil, the night sight idea could be adapted for use with drones, as appropriate lenses are on the market.

[oldfossil]

So its Drones and licences versus seeding... As said the use of Drones is highly regulated ... and their use at night is not practical ... you cant just go out, buy a chopper and launch it off your front lawn at 12 midnight ... it just doesnt work like that. Ask any expert on the subject and he/she will tell you... Also would love to see a drone in action, at night, with wind speeds over 15mph ... the sparks would fly as they bring down the power lines... I am only being realistic. Then we have the issue of detector licences ... does anyone really believe that a licence will stop a night hawker... Not for one minute folks... again sorry to burst any bubbles out there... and then you have the issue of a parliament enactment to put a licencing law into place... Just suppose we weren't in the middle of Brexit and Global terrorism ... just how long do people think it would put a law into place ... we are talking many many many years... and the law is retrograde and Draconian to say the least.
So if anyone can come up with a cheap, quick, simple, legal and lasting solution ... that can be applied next week if necessary ... then lets get on with it. But so far I only know of one solution that fits the bill.

[PhilD]

You don't need a lecence to fly a drone John if it's not for commercial use.

I wouldn't fly one in the wind.

They can be programmed to fly a fixed route of waypoints at a fixed height.

Not sure quite what the rules are at night with such a drone.

I think they have to be in sight at all times but they do have lights for you to see.

How many 4 hole buttons will you need to seed Barbury castle? Anawera on a postcard.