Joint meeting in stance against heritage crime

[jcmaloney]

If buying the machines was slightly more difficult then folk would soon find something else to do.
The whole "hawker" argument is vastly over egged, mostly by those who (ironically) want more restrictions on the hobby.
Seeding is nothing short of vandalism as in 10 or 15 years there could be new methods of ground survey that, like the current equipment, would be skewed by seeding.
A bit of team work, run properly, can resolve the problem in a matter of weeks.... prime example being Rendelsham. Royal Saxon palace site, a lot of which was ploughed out but lots of high status metallic finds........ every time it was ploughed & drilled it was "hawked"....... until a group was formed to detect almost behind the tractor. Outcome , staggering amount of finds recorded and no more hawking as "word spreads".

[oldfossil]

If buying the machines was slightly more difficult then folk would soon find something else to do.
The whole "hawker" argument is vastly over egged, mostly by those who (ironically) want more restrictions on the hobby.
Seeding is nothing short of vandalism as in 10 or 15 years there could be new methods of ground survey that, like the current equipment, would be skewed by seeding.
A bit of team work, run properly, can resolve the problem in a matter of weeks.... prime example being Rendelsham. Royal Saxon palace site, a lot of which was ploughed out but lots of high status metallic finds........ every time it was ploughed & drilled it was "hawked"....... until a group was formed to detect almost behind the tractor. Outcome , staggering amount of finds recorded and no more hawking as "word spreads".

Vandalism is just a tadge rich ... its a very simple job for a techie to "program out" the effect of contaminants ... and I have been at pains to explain that the seeding method would be best employed on sites that have already been thoroughly investigated. The fact is that many historic sites have been totally researched by the arhies ... are not under the plough, and are relatively remote. And as for legit tectorists digging up scheduled sites on behalf of the archi's, as a proactive program to remove finds ... as you suggest ... can you imagine tectorists doing Avebury, Silbury hill or Kennet and Avon long Barrow... it would be a very very unpleasant site.. Also I suggest that you maybe meet one or two night hawkers.. these are not a nice breed of people ... and that is putting it very mildly. They are not the sort of people who read leaflets (if they can read that is) ... they not computer literate ... and operate their lives on the wrong side of the law ... in other words scum bags. You say that night hawking is over egged .. (but you haven't asked to see my pics, and they are not over egged I assure you) ... by those who want more regulations ... but wasnt it your idea to introduce licencing??

[oldfossil]

Hi Phil ...
The attached link gives some valuable information on flying drones at night .. especially if they are equipped with cameras.
http://www.quadcoptercloud.com/can-drones-fly-night/
Also the drone code puts stringent limitations on their use ..
Keep your drone within your line of sight and at a maximum height of 400ft (122m)
Make sure your drone is within 500m from you horizontally
Always fly your drone well away from aircraft, helicopters, airports and airfields
If fitted with a camera, a drone must be flown at last 50m away from a person, vehicle, building or structure not owned or controlled by the pilot.
Camera-equipped drones must not be flown within 150m of a congested area or large group of people, such as a sporting event or concert
There is also an argument that where a drone is used to protect commercial properties then its operation comes under the commercial rule set, so I guess that its not an automatic assumption that its operation would come under the recreational banner.

[PhilD]

Thanks John, nice link I have bookmarked it.

I think the landowner would be within the rules if he kept the right distance from his field boundaries.

The 'commercial use' in my opinion means he would be receiving payment for using it which he would not be.

I think any nighthawkers would panic if they thought they were being filmed especially when the flood light hit them

It could be expensive though if they shot the blighter down

Can you switch the floodlight off remotely after filming them I wonder?

[jcmaloney]

If buying the machines was slightly more difficult then folk would soon find something else to do.
The whole "hawker" argument is vastly over egged, mostly by those who (ironically) want more restrictions on the hobby.
Seeding is nothing short of vandalism as in 10 or 15 years there could be new methods of ground survey that, like the current equipment, would be skewed by seeding.
A bit of team work, run properly, can resolve the problem in a matter of weeks.... prime example being Rendelsham. Royal Saxon palace site, a lot of which was ploughed out but lots of high status metallic finds........ every time it was ploughed & drilled it was "hawked"....... until a group was formed to detect almost behind the tractor. Outcome , staggering amount of finds recorded and no more hawking as "word spreads".

Vandalism is just a tadge rich ... its a very simple job for a techie to "program out" the effect of contaminants... and I have been at pains to explain that the seeding method would be best employed on sites that have already been thoroughly investigated. The fact is that many historic sites have been totally researched by the arhies ... are not under the plough, and are relatively remote. And as for legit tectorists digging up scheduled sites on behalf of the archi's, as a proactive program to remove finds ... as you suggest ... can you imagine tectorists doing Avebury, Silbury hill or Kennet and Avon long Barrow... it would be a very very unpleasant site.. Also I suggest that you maybe meet one or two night hawkers.. these are not a nice breed of people ... and that is putting it very mildly. They are not the sort of people who read leaflets (if they can read that is) ... they not computer literate ... and operate their lives on the wrong side of the law ... in other words scum bags. You say that night hawking is over egged .. (but you haven't asked to see my pics, and they are not over egged I assure you) ... by those who want more regulations ... but wasnt it your idea to introduce licencing??

1. It is not a "simple job for a techie" to program out contaminants, one of the first questions that was asked of Dr Gerrard from Newcastle Uni regarding Green Waste.
2.I said it was a possibility to licence.

Aside from that I tend not to associate with criminals (to my knowledge) its the downside of society having rules/laws... folk will break them.
Why would I want to see pictures of holes? I know what they look like....... the issue is you, me or anyone else doesn`t know what was in them.... which is no different to a detectorist not recording......... so with the hobby comes responsibility, bit like driving a car.... break the rules..lose the licence.

[Old Git John]

JC, you speak with forked tongue when you say, Aside from that I tend not to associate with criminals (to my knowledge) its the downside of society having rules/laws... folk will break them., I have yet to meet one person who has never broken a law.

On the other hand laws, contrary to common belief, are not put out there, to be broken.

I return to something which I, and many others, have said for years now. We responsible detectorists have to self police, within our capabilities, and within the law.
It does not need us to put ourselves at risk, it does however require each and every one of us who knows of any person who is committing crimes to report such events/people to the appropriate authorities, if possible with photographic evidence, including any vehicle, their equipment, and of their crime being committed.

PLEASE DO NOT TAKE RISKS.

[jcmaloney]

JC, you speak with forked tongue when you say, Aside from that I tend not to associate with criminals (to my knowledge) its the downside of society having rules/laws... folk will break them., I have yet to meet one person who has never broken a law.

On the other hand laws, contrary to common belief, are not put out there, to be broken.

I return to something which I, and many others, have said for years now. We responsible detectorists have to self police, within our capabilities, and within the law.
It does not need us to put ourselves at risk, it does however require each and every one of us who knows of any person who is committing crimes to report such events/people to the appropriate authorities, if possible with photographic evidence, including any vehicle, their equipment, and of their crime being committed.

PLEASE DO NOT TAKE RISKS.

I said "to my knowledge"........ how you make that "speaking with a forked tongue" I have not a clue.

I wholeheartedly agree with people taking appropriate action & provide hard evidence to facilitate prosecutions.

Remember the NCMD are signed up to support ARCH (The Alliance against Heritage Crime), I even know our local wildlife & heritage crime officer..... how many have even gone that far??

Back to evidence & cause, not the aftermath.....hence photographs of holes with no evidence of a detector user having caused them are just that....photographs of holes...... maybe ban the sale of spades??

[oldfossil]

Thanks John, nice link I have bookmarked it.

I think the landowner would be within the rules if he kept the right distance from his field boundaries.

The 'commercial use' in my opinion means he would be receiving payment for using it which he would not be.

I think any nighthawkers would panic if they thought they were being filmed especially when the flood light hit them

It could be expensive though if they shot the blighter down

Can you switch the floodlight off remotely after filming them I wonder?

I have been thinking about this some more Phil ... my farmers have hands the size of dinner plates .. and fingers to match...
Maybe they could set up a net work of geo-stationary drones ... to create a permanent nation wide record of what is going on

[oldfossil]

If buying the machines was slightly more difficult then folk would soon find something else to do.
The whole "hawker" argument is vastly over egged, mostly by those who (ironically) want more restrictions on the hobby.
Seeding is nothing short of vandalism as in 10 or 15 years there could be new methods of ground survey that, like the current equipment, would be skewed by seeding.
A bit of team work, run properly, can resolve the problem in a matter of weeks.... prime example being Rendelsham. Royal Saxon palace site, a lot of which was ploughed out but lots of high status metallic finds........ every time it was ploughed & drilled it was "hawked"....... until a group was formed to detect almost behind the tractor. Outcome , staggering amount of finds recorded and no more hawking as "word spreads".

Vandalism is just a tadge rich ... its a very simple job for a techie to "program out" the effect of contaminants... and I have been at pains to explain that the seeding method would be best employed on sites that have already been thoroughly investigated. The fact is that many historic sites have been totally researched by the arhies ... are not under the plough, and are relatively remote. And as for legit tectorists digging up scheduled sites on behalf of the archi's, as a proactive program to remove finds ... as you suggest ... can you imagine tectorists doing Avebury, Silbury hill or Kennet and Avon long Barrow... it would be a very very unpleasant site.. Also I suggest that you maybe meet one or two night hawkers.. these are not a nice breed of people ... and that is putting it very mildly. They are not the sort of people who read leaflets (if they can read that is) ... they not computer literate ... and operate their lives on the wrong side of the law ... in other words scum bags. You say that night hawking is over egged .. (but you haven't asked to see my pics, and they are not over egged I assure you) ... by those who want more regulations ... but wasnt it your idea to introduce licencing??

1. It is not a "simple job for a techie" to program out contaminants, one of the first questions that was asked of Dr Gerrard from Newcastle Uni regarding Green Waste.
2.I said it was a possibility to licence.

Aside from that I tend not to associate with criminals (to my knowledge) its the downside of society having rules/laws... folk will break them.
Why would I want to see pictures of holes? I know what they look like....... the issue is you, me or anyone else doesn`t know what was in them.... which is no different to a detectorist not recording......... so with the hobby comes responsibility, bit like driving a car.... break the rules..lose the licence.

I guess if you havent seen the damage first hand, then its hard to appreciate what night hawking a world heritage site looks like (still no takers for my photos By the way). After a lifetime working in the comfort of an office, I have now immersed myself in the life of the countryside ... and believe me there are all sorts out there, and a few have views, opinions, and ways of doing things that hark to times gone by. Where the poacher isn't the villlain, but the hero, where the law breaker isnt a menace but someone making his way in the world .. people who run their lives by the fist, and dont ask questions. So you may not consort with criminals ... but if you havent got to the grass roots mentality of these country folk, then its very difficult to form an opinion me thinks!!!

[oldfossil]

JCM ... appreciate what Dr G said in relation to Green waste... but please dont confuse this with screening out the profile of a set of known contaminants ... put down for the purpose of protecting sensitive sites.. please lets not automatically rule out potentially good solutions on the basis of likely false supposition.

[PhilD]

Sorry to hear about your farmers hands and fingers John. Glad they can manage to programme their GPS automated tracters ok somehow.

What worries me are those nighthawks who become obsessed with finding 4 hole buttons.

Can you imagine how many holes they might leave if they are not caught on the job by our friendly low flying drones

Have they tried drones at night at Barbury Castle?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DpXOII7x0k

It would be nice to hear an archies view on seeding, who would be best to ask?

[oldfossil]

Thanks for the link .. although close to large populations ... it is a remote place, so patrols would need to be sent out to deploy the machines. The holes I witnessed were all out of sight of the approach road, the hawkers may be thick, but they are still devious. I actually heard somewhere that Archies already use seeding on selected sites, particularly when digs are in progress... By the way have you seen the trenches between the A1 and the paintball center at Flaxby Moor???

[PhilD]

I'm not familiar with that area John.

I've emailed Jon Kenny and asked him about seeding.

https://www.jkcomarc.co.uk/

[jcmaloney]

Seeding is pointless..... most top end machines can be set to notch out something standard like a steel washer.
I can put a "pound coin" setting into my Minelab which is great for bootsale fields etc...... its reverse theory with washers or similar.
Geo-phys machines can`t be adjusted as they just see metal (ferrous or non ferrous).

Oldfossil..... you keep mentioning your pictures of holes.... if you are that concerned just post them on here..... any evidence they were caused by detectorists?

[Old Git John]

Seeding is pointless..... most top end machines can be set to notch out something standard like a steel washer.
I can put a "pound coin" setting into my Minelab which is great for bootsale fields etc...... its reverse theory with washers or similar.
Geo-phys machines can`t be adjusted as they just see metal (ferrous or non ferrous).

Oldfossil..... you keep mentioning your pictures of holes.... if you are that concerned just post them on here..... any evidence they were caused by detectorists?

John, not wishing to be silly, again. I fully understand your comment "top end" machines, which one would expect. However, the hobby is full of folk who cannot afford top end ones, such as myself. We would no doubt suffer most if seeding were to become widespread as a
deterrent. I really do feel that there is a lot we as a whole can do to if not STOP hawkers, but to make their existence much harder for them to operate, and wonder whether folk can
come up with ideas which would work. What say you?