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 Post subject: Re: More treasure-hunters could be forced to hand over
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:04 pm 
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JBM wrote:
The interview is worth watching if it can be seen on replay. :g58: Jerry.


Thanks Jerry, I will have alook, when I can win the TV back from my other half... :g43: :g64:



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 Post subject: Re: More treasure-hunters could be forced to hand over
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:12 am 
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I have read through the proposed changes.
Most of them seem to be about saving money by the "treasure system operators"
ie not spending money to value items worth less than £100 makes sense.
speeding up the system seems very reasonable.
( an email from FLO to museum saying that this is not being declared as treasure, if you are interested please yell - make an offer, would keep everyone happy. )

We, as an interested group, should discus this whole subject and send them our opinions.


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 Post subject: Re: More treasure-hunters could be forced to hand over
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:07 pm 
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I don't like these suggestions on page 40;

142. To this end we are putting forward several initial suggesons as the basis of
discussion on the future form of the treasure process.

These are:
● the introducon of a process similar to that in Scotland, whereby all
archaeological objects become the property of the Crown;

● the introducon of a regulation as in Northern Ireland where archaeological
digging of any sort (both by professional archaeologists and others) is only
allowed by permit.



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 Post subject: Re: More treasure-hunters could be forced to hand over
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:50 pm 
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PhilD wrote:
I don't like these suggestions on page 40;

142. To this end we are putting forward several initial suggesons as the basis of
discussion on the future form of the treasure process.

These are:
● the introducon of a process similar to that in Scotland, whereby all
archaeological objects become the property of the Crown;

● the introducon of a regulation as in Northern Ireland where archaeological
digging of any sort (both by professional archaeologists and others) is only
allowed by permit.

Do we know what that last suggestion actually means Phil? Does it mean that we are not allowed to dig on any sites that have an archeological past (virtually all of the UK)? I thought that digging by archeologists was already governed by licence on archeological sites? What exactly are 'Archeological objects'? Objects of any age, if dug by an Archeologists?

Just found this definition of an archeological object.....

Archaeological objects consists of three dimensional materials that have been removed from a burial environment. Burial environments include terrestrial sites (ie: archaeological sites on land) or waterlogged sites (ie: those found under water).



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 Post subject: Re: More treasure-hunters could be forced to hand over
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:05 pm 
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In Scotland, any ownerless objects found by chance or through activities such as metal-detecting, field-walking, or archaeological excavation become the property of the Crown and therefore may be claimed as treasure trove.

https://treasuretrovescotland.co.uk/

The role of Treasure Trove is to ensure that objects of cultural significance from Scotland’s past are protected for the benefit of the nation and preserved in museums across the country.

Treasure Trove is based on the principles of the Scots common law bona vacantia (ownerless goods). The Treasure Act (1996) does not apply in Scotland.

In Scotland, any ownerless objects found by chance or through activities such as metal-detecting, field-walking, or archaeological excavation become the property of the Crown and therefore may be claimed as treasure trove.

With the exception of modern objects, e.g. Victorian coins and machinery fragments, etc., any object considered to be significant, regardless of its age or composition, may be claimed as treasure by the Crown.

Does it also mean that England and Wales would have no PAS like Scotland?

I thought the update was to move foreward not backward.

And needing a permit really sucks.



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 Post subject: Re: More treasure-hunters could be forced to hand over
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:01 pm 
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Just gives the green light for them to take everything from you and just pay you what they want.

This has all came about because of the BRONZE roman helmet, they were unable to take is from him and offered what I believe was Two hundred and fifty thousand pounds for it and in real terms it was worth£2.3 million.

So lets just change the law why don't we and just take what we want and pay what we want.


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 Post subject: Re: More treasure-hunters could be forced to hand over
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:17 pm 
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PhilD wrote:
I don't like these suggestions on page 40;

142. To this end we are putting forward several initial suggesons as the basis of
discussion on the future form of the treasure process.

These are:
● the introducon of a process similar to that in Scotland, whereby all
archaeological objects become the property of the Crown;

● the introducon of a regulation as in Northern Ireland where archaeological
digging of any sort (both by professional archaeologists and others) is only
allowed by permit.


I agree with you Phil, I don't like the idea of heading towards a system similar to the current Scottish system... :g45: hopefully we have so Scottish members on here that could share there experiences with us?

But I myself wouldn't oppose a permit or licensing system... :g58: as I feel the hobby has grown to popular and we have farms around my way saying no metal detecting as the landowners are sick to death of been asked either by door knocking, letters or phone calls... on top of that in my area alone there are 19 Facebook based pay and play groups operating which I know of charging £20 per head. I have always said to my friends and thought this isn't sustainable and the powers that be will step in and make changes! Is this the start I ask myself... this is why I support permits and licencing, without the farmers and landowners we cease to be... :g37:



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 Post subject: Re: More treasure-hunters could be forced to hand over
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:39 pm 
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The problem as I see it will be finds currently being declared going unrecorded and sold off in the black market. :g58: :g48: Jerry.



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 Post subject: Re: More treasure-hunters could be forced to hand over
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:43 pm 
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JBM wrote:
The problem as I see it will be finds currently being declared going unrecorded and sold off in the black market. :g58: :g48: Jerry.


Very true Jerry... but I wonder how much of that goes on already... :g43:



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 Post subject: Re: More treasure-hunters could be forced to hand over
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:15 am 
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Looks as though we are going back to the seventies ...when we had to obtain a licence...


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 Post subject: Re: More treasure-hunters could be forced to hand over
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:48 am 
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I think this will go even further Ron.

Myself and many friends are not surprised now that the hobby has been commercialised.

Reading the threads elsware on the internet,some of the newcomers to our hobby are still burying their heads in the sand.

Somethings has to give and many of my friends and club mates agree,

Jerry.



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 Post subject: Re: More treasure-hunters could be forced to hand over
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:40 pm 
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While we are at it ,let us put turnstiles on footpaths , charge for going on beaches, have mountain climbing and potholing licenced, Have cyclists pay road tax and insurance make canoeist pay for access to rivers . I could go on but rant over
Finds for the year 2018 1 dogs head buckle ,no hammered ,no roman, no silver I will give it another year . You are welcome to the land I get to detect on.


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 Post subject: Re: More treasure-hunters could be forced to hand over
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:12 pm 
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JBM wrote:
I think this will go even further Ron.

Myself and many friends are not surprised now that the hobby has been commercialised.

Reading the threads elsware on the internet,some of the newcomers to our hobby are still burying their heads in the sand.

Somethings has to give and many of my friends and club mates agree,

Jerry.


What started as a hobby ..is being as you say jerry destroyed by commercialisation I don't detect anymore ,so i gave my machine to my son in law.
Glad you are keeping going.


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 Post subject: Re: More treasure-hunters could be forced to hand over
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:29 pm 
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Blame all the detectorists who don't declare or record their finds. To give one example - in 2007-8 I fieldwalked a farm near here with the local archaeology group, and we found lots of Roman & medieval pottery - enough to suggest there had been considerable activity on the site. Last year I went back to the same farm and got permission to detect it. The farmer said that he didn't expect I would find much as in the intervening 10 years two metal detecting clubs had been over it 'most weekends' with up to 40 people involved - one club regularly turned up in a coach. He said they hadn't found much based on what he had been shown, and on checking the PAS NOTHING has been recorded for this parish. And both clubs are well regarded and have been operating for a very long time, are NCMD members, regular club nights with the FLO invited, blah blah blah
I've been there on 33 occasions since getting permission and have recorded 72 items, including several Roman & medieval, and one treasure case.
What do you suppose has happened to all the stuff that the club members found? The landowner hasn't had anything, nothing has been recorded, and I'd imagine most of it has been sold on ebay - and I wouldn't be surprised if there might not have been over a thousand recordable items over that 10 year period. All that history has been trashed....and it makes me sick.


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 Post subject: Re: More treasure-hunters could be forced to hand over
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:00 pm 
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What about the thousands of items that have been handed in. Most of the major finds over the years have been found by detectorists. Thousands of finds recorded add nothing to what is already known about the history has to where they were found I would suggest just keeping the f.L.Os in employment.
The archeology world and all who make a living out of it should be careful of what they wish for . If more stringent rules make it less attractive to go metal detecting ( and I don,t mean profit ) Then the numbers taking part would collapse .
If the big main meetings held every year were restricted to more than 50 Then it would not be worth going to the firms such as Minelab and XP and others , yes it is commercial but it has led to many to get involved with detecting as well as being a great day out. If the number of people that goes detecting dropped ,so would the finds, Less finds less work for F.L.Os and those conserving finds. Any downturn in the economy would see these occupations looked at for making cuts among other things especially if the work load had dried up.
Like I have already stated , Put your hands around someones throat and squeeze , they will die.


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