Medieval strap ruled treasure

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Steve Rice
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Medieval strap ruled treasure

Post by Steve Rice »

A bit of a strange one. Although I like the idea of the Museum being able to acquire items of interest, I really think that they've taken the words of the Treasure Act to the extreme.

Medieval strap ruled treasure
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Re: Medieval strap ruled treasure

Post by Baldric »

I agree to an extent, but the silver content in-situ does put it into the realms of treasure, so to be fair I think it's the right call.
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Re: Medieval strap ruled treasure

Post by grumpyjohn »

I can't see that. The rivets are part of the complete artefact and no way can be anywhere near 10% of the total weight !!!
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Re: Medieval strap ruled treasure

Post by AXE HEAD »

The strap end weighs 4.0 grams = 400 Milligrams , so the rivets have been deemed to weigh 40 milligrams. has this been scientifically worked out or is it just an off the cuff estimate. Talk about moving the goal posts.

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Re: Medieval strap ruled treasure

Post by jcmaloney »

Ian Richardson of the British Museum says 'rivets have been recorded on their own and therefore it is reasonable to consider that they are 'distinct components' and therefore fall under the act'.

Thats why...nothing to do with percentage.

However I can only see 1 silver rivet on PAS ..........and how the hell they dated it I have no idea!!! http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/484894

Its stuff like this that jams up the system, surely it would be easier,cheaper & more realistic if the FLO/Coroner asked finder & landowner if they wished to donate ? The monetary value is going to be £50/60 tops??

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Re: Medieval strap ruled treasure

Post by AXE HEAD »

jcmaloney wrote:Ian Richardson of the British Museum says 'rivets have been recorded on their own and therefore it is reasonable to consider that they are 'distinct components' and therefore fall under the act'.

Thats why...nothing to do with percentage.

However I can only see 1 silver rivet on PAS ..........and how the hell they dated it I have no idea!!! http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/484894

Its stuff like this that jams up the system, surely it would be easier,cheaper & more realistic if the FLO/Coroner asked finder & landowner if they wished to donate ? The monetary value is going to be £50/60 tops??
UK Treasure Trove Act Changes
January 12, 2010
An amendment to the legal framework in the UK concerning finds which are classed as ‘treasure’ was passed on 12th November 2009. For the purposes of the law, ‘treasure’ means an object or group of objects more than 300 years old with more than 10 per cent gold or silver. There has for a long time been a legal duty to report finds of treasure to the authorities; a coroner will then conduct an inquest to determine whether the treasure was lost (and thus the property of the crown) or hidden with a view to recovery, in which case the coroner must try to trace the owner or any surviving legal heirs (and should non be found the treasure reverts to the crown).

It is the grey areas like this that stuffs thing up and confuses people as to just where they stand. Why not just make everything classed as treasure and be done with it,then everything that is found will belong to the state.
This will then open a new whole can of worms making it obligatory to have to take all finds to the coroner.
The above amendment to the act gives a good indication of just how misleading the 10 per cent figure is.
Is it by weight or area ?, If by weight is it just estimated or worked out by a more reliable method.
If the guy with the strap end in question did not agree with the finding and asked for proof that the rivets were
indeed 10 per cent silver or more what answer would he get. It seems to me that this is a good example of someone bending the rules to get their hands on something that they want. If you make rules then you should then abide by those rules, the ten per cent rule need to be clarified to prevent other dodgy judgements being made.

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Re: Medieval strap ruled treasure

Post by AXE HEAD »

I tried to edit the other post but could not so I have had to do this repost.

I have copied the treasure act and can see just where the confusion lies. I think the 10 per cent just applies to coins with other artefacts that contain any gold or silver having to be prehistoric in age.

Here is the act.

The Act uses the term treasure instead of treasure trove; the latter term is now confined to objects found before the Act came into force. Objects falling within the following definition are "treasure" under the Act:[40][41]

If the object is not a coin,[42] it must be at least 300 years old[43] and at least 10%[44] precious metal (that is, gold or silver)[45] by weight.
If the object is a coin, it must either be:
one of at least two coins in the same find[46] which are at least 300 years old at that time and are at least 10% precious metal by weight; or
one of at least ten coins in the same find which are at least 300 years old at that time.
Any object at least 200 years old when found which belongs to a class of objects of outstanding historical, archaeological or cultural importance that has been designated as treasure by the Secretary of State.[47] As of 2006, the following classes of objects had been so designated:[48]
Any object, other than a coin, any part of which is base metal (that is, not gold or silver),[49] which when found is one of at least two base metal objects in the same find which are of prehistoric date.[50]
Any object, other than a coin, which is of prehistoric date, and any part of which is gold or silver.
Any object which would have been treasure trove if found before 24 September 1997.
Any object which, when found, is part of the same find as:
an object within head (1), (2), (3) or (4) above found at the same time or earlier; or
an object found earlier which would be within head (1), (2) or (3) above if it had been found at the same time.

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Re: Medieval strap ruled treasure

Post by jcmaloney »

Forget the 10% part. They are taking the rivets as individual Treasure items and the rest of it by association.
See Section 1 Para 1 Line (d) Subline (i) as below......

"(d)any object which, when found, is part of the same find as—
(i)an object within paragraph (a), (b) or (c) found at the same time or earlier; or"

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/199 ... f-treasure

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Re: Medieval strap ruled treasure

Post by Steve Rice »

I'm actually trying to think of anything that would not be treasure, if it has any silver or gold content at all - assuming it isn't painted/plated. :g43:
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Re: Medieval strap ruled treasure

Post by grumpyjohn »

All very confusing !!! In Scotland any man made item over 300 years old is crown property !!! There again with only two people employed to decide what should be considered as crown property there can be a serious delay between reporting an item and a decision taken on its status !!! Personally I would like to see a system in Scotland similar to the English one with FLOs in each county !!! Maybe a complete overhaul of both systems is well overdue.
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Re: Medieval strap ruled treasure

Post by jcmaloney »

I would highly recommend anyone reads Trevor Austins excellent articles on Treasure that were published in both mags & are available to all on the NCMD website. http://www.ncmd.co.uk/tvc.htm

There is a forthcoming HMG review of the Treasure Act where hopefully more than 1 individual in the hobby will comment!!
However I fully expect an immense wave of apathy followed by another couple of years of TVC bashing.

My PERSONAL opinion is that FLO`s should be given the legal ability to disclaim OR begin the process of claiming low value items without the time & expense of a full coroners inquiry and that a Treasure Coroner is appointed, I would also like the Secretary of State to act swiftly in cases such as the CG helmet for the benefit of the nation ....but thats a bit of a pipe dream.

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Re: Medieval strap ruled treasure

Post by AXE HEAD »

[quote="jcmaloney"]I would highly recommend anyone reads Trevor Austins excellent articles on Treasure that were published in both mags & are available to all on the NCMD website. http://www.ncmd.co.uk/tvc.htm

There is a forthcoming HMG review of the Treasure Act where hopefully more than 1 individual in the hobby will comment!!
However I fully expect an immense wave of apathy followed by another couple of years of TVC bashing.

My PERSONAL opinion is that FLO`s should be given the legal ability to disclaim OR begin the process of claiming low value items without the time & expense of a full coroners inquiry and that a Treasure Coroner is appointed, I would also like the Secretary of State to act swiftly in cases such as the CG helmet for the benefit of the nation ....but thats a bit of a pipe dream.[/quote.

:g50: All good things start as dreams.

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