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 Post subject: Re: Rare Viking coin found in a Nottinghamshire field
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:20 am 
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I think the RD COP is a bit outdated now, it needs to catch up with the CS agreement requirements.

The landowner shouldn't let you detect if it breaks his agreement by you not recording.



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 Post subject: Re: Rare Viking coin found in a Nottinghamshire field
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:43 am 
Obviously I fully agree with PAS reporting ... just trying to find where it states that reporting is compulsory .. have scanned the docs and links you kindly supplied ... but cant see anything.


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rare Viking coin found in a Nottinghamshire field
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:19 am 
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It's in the FLO's briefing.also in the Stewardship Agreement.

And here see 8.13 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... ersion.pdf



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 Post subject: Re: Rare Viking coin found in a Nottinghamshire field
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:21 am 
Phil... I have just tracked this down from the following link file:///C:/Users/Helen/Downloads/NE349.pdf

5.5.5 Archaeological fieldwork and metal detecting on your land
With certain exceptions (see below) metal detecting is allowed on land within an ELS agreement, provided
that it is undertaken in accordance with best practice laid down in the current Code of Practice for
Responsible Metal Detecting in England and Wales and that you agree that all finds are reported to the
Portable Antiquities Scheme. For details of this code, please see http://www.finds.org.uk.

If the above statement is accurate I have three issues with it ..
1. It doesnt state who should report the finds to PAS... only that they should be reported. This implies that any failure to report, provided the finder declared the find to the farmer, is primarily the farmers responsibility, not the finders.
2. Also my old bug bear raises its head again ... "all finds to be reported to PAS" ... PAS dont seem to be interested in finds less than 300 years old.
3. Also there is no formal process for reporting finds... there is a process for recording finds. What I am saying is there are no records evidencing what has been found and reported to PAS, hence it would be impossible for inspectors to determine whether or not the rule has been complied with.


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rare Viking coin found in a Nottinghamshire field
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:14 am 
I know we have gone off topic on this post .. and coming fresh to the thread again this morning...
If anyone can clarify exactly what "All finds must be reported to PAS" actually means it would be appreciated.

I have come up with some potential interpretations
1. All finds of what ever age must be shown to the FLO (where a find is deemed to be any metallic target, including obvious rubbish)
2. All finds of what ever age must be shown to the FLO (where a find is deemed to anything that is not obvious rubbish .. a 4-hole button for example would not be deemed as rubbish)
3. All finds assessed by the finder to be potentially over 300 years old must be shown to the FLO
I note that there is no obligation on any party to record ... the obligation is to report, where I assume that reporting means showing the find to the FLO.

I stick with my view that it is the land owners responsibility to ensure that finds are reported, though quite how/he she would ensure and evidence that this is being done is anyones guess.


  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rare Viking coin found in a Nottinghamshire field
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:31 am 
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Yes the failure to report will be on the landowners head. He/she normally expects and trusts the finder to report the find as he has agreed to.

The PAS say it's often best to let the FLO see all your finds - this is so nothing like a BA ingot slips through the net.

https://finds.org.uk/getinvolved/faq

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S9ABigF19U

The final decision to record a find will be based on your local knowledge and experience supplemented where necessary by the advice of colleagues. If in doubt ask.

Finders should be encouraged to maintain their collections in sufficient order so that non recorded finds could (in theory) be recorded at a later date.

https://finds.org.uk/getinvolved/guides ... ngguidance

https://finds.org.uk/getinvolved/guides/pressures

The findspot 10 fig number is under spacial co ordinates on the record sheet.So best copy the sheet to the landowner.



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 Post subject: Re: Rare Viking coin found in a Nottinghamshire field
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:35 am 
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PhilD wrote:
I think the RD COP is a bit outdated now, it needs to catch up with the CS agreement requirements.


All in hand currently in consultation with all the "partners". :g50:

Gentle reminder that it is a voluntary COP.

The danger with many of these schemes, advice, COP etc is that they can "drift" and easily be seen as compulsory or mandatory.

The most recent CS Manual states:
"On all other Agreement Land, Agreement Holders must ensure that metal detecting does not conflict with the requirements of their agreement, in particular where proposed metal detecting may affect their ability to meet option prescriptions. For example, options supporting ground-nesting birds, priority habitats, or rare arable plants are incompatible with ground disturbance, and such activities may cause a breach of agreement and result in withholding of payments, reclaims or penalties (see section 7.3).
Any metal detecting that Agreement Holders allow on Agreement Land should be undertaken in accordance with best practice laid down in the current Code of Practice for Responsible Metal Detecting in England and Wales at: https://finds.org.uk/getinvolved/guides/
codeofpractice, and all finds must be reported to the Portable Antiquities Scheme."

Now if the landowner says report the finds (as per his regulations) but won`t permit the required level of accuracy that PAS want (as per their new guidance)........... well thats a conundrum.


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 Post subject: Re: Rare Viking coin found in a Nottinghamshire field
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:53 am 
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Thanks John :g50:

I've just emailed our FLO re what if a finder records to 6 figs or parish, awaiting a reply.

I would say to prove the find was found on his/her land you would need to record to say 6 figures (100 metres)?



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 Post subject: Re: Rare Viking coin found in a Nottinghamshire field
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:19 pm 
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PhilD wrote:
Thanks John :g50:

I've just emailed our FLO re what if a finder records to 6 figs or parish, awaiting a reply.

I would say to prove the find was found on his/her land you would need to record to say 6 figures (100 metres)?


Most fields under CS, or other schemes, have a reference number or name on the Farm Environment Record (FER), now from a CS view thats fairly conclusive as to ownership, but an FLO wouldn`t accept it under their new guidance. :g43:

Just playing devils advocate.... :g50:


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 Post subject: Re: Rare Viking coin found in a Nottinghamshire field
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:32 pm 
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Ideally there needs to be a means for the landowner to see all finds recorded on his land on the database. Particularly if a club detects there and lots of finds are involved. The individual members do not normally submit their PAS record ID sheets to the landowner.



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 Post subject: Re: Rare Viking coin found in a Nottinghamshire field
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:20 pm 
Sorry folks but I am at a total loss here
The scheme extract that I supplied above "All finds must be reported to PAS" is a complete nonsense to me ...
First how is a "find" defined ... are 4-hole buttons considered finds ... are coke cans considered finds
Second ... how is "reported" defined ... I wouldnt assume that reported = recorded.
It seems to me that the wording of the scheme is so lax that it is effectively unworkable at ground level.


  
 
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